Week of July 31
I did a presentation on "Reimagining How Students Talk About Texts" that ties right into chapter 15. Link to Google Slide Deck
119 Comments
Bob Long
7/31/2017 04:09:15 pm
Reading the Same Book
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Angela Westlake
7/31/2017 05:07:49 pm
I love that you are really thinking about your teaching and ways to change what you're doing. I don't have any answers for you, but I love your idea of giving the students two choices. Even having two choices would probably engage your students much more effectively than just telling them what to read!
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Jenn Ramage
8/3/2017 07:21:52 pm
I just chatted with my ELA teaching partner. She said, "my kids always have a choice except Shakespeare." Each theme has a trio of novels from which kids can choose, and the activities she assigns are based on theme as opposed to specifics of the novel. She knows all three novels well and can determine if students grasped the curricular concepts through the same assignment(s) regardless of the novel chosen.
Tracy Obringer
7/31/2017 05:36:19 pm
Once...many years ago, I decided to have multiple book groups going on at one time. In theory, it was fantastic. In reality, it was a nightmare for me. I had to keep up with all of the different books that were being read in order to facilitate the conversations. (To be perfectly honest, there were times that I "faked" it and hoped that the students wouldn't catch me!) I still struggle with conferencing...even after 13 years in the classroom .I hate to be distracting to others in the room...but if I take it in the hallway, who KNOWS what is occurring in my room!?! I feel like it is such a good tool, but I just can't figure out how to do it...aside from setting aside time outside of the school day!!
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Jen Zarlino
8/1/2017 06:09:43 pm
I am with you Tracy- it took A LOT of trial and error for me to figure out how book clubs would work in a 55 minute period with 100+ students in a day.
Heather Barnes
8/3/2017 05:52:52 pm
Jen - Would you be willing to share some of the things that have worked for you? I have 50 minute periods with 100+ students a day, too!
Jen Zarlino
8/7/2017 02:38:37 pm
Heather- I shared some ideas on another comment below, but here are some other things I've thought of:
Andrea Conover
8/8/2017 02:24:36 pm
Ditto to everything you mentioned, Tracy!! These are my biggest areas of struggle as well. I'm always looking for suggestions on how teachers do this successfully!!
Kelly Cummings
8/16/2017 02:34:45 pm
Thank you Jen Z. for your input on how your do reading groups. We had a fifth grade teacher in our building that did this same way. She did it very well. I think for myself I just need to not be scared of failure. 8/17/2017 02:13:35 am
When I taught we used thematic units and were not tied to anthologies so it was really easy to offer kids choices of books to read. I would have 3 or 4 different books going on at the same time. I wish I had the signposts and BHH back then. I know I would have had deeper comprehension and better discussion. I also read aloud to my class every day after lunch.
Megan McCaffrey
8/1/2017 11:43:57 am
Hi Bob! I agree...there is definitely some brainstorming that can be done for our department when it comes to students to reading the same book at the same time. I'm very torn on this subject...just like I am on the silent reading. Ugh, separating my personal feelings and what research shows is very difficult!
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Molly Klodor
8/3/2017 08:08:23 am
I think one of the biggest struggles is trying to find books that accomplish the same goal. I teach a book partially because I like it, but also because it's a vehicle to get to a particular destination (I want to teach about plot progression, I want to teach about characterization, etc). If I do multiple books in one class, I need to find books that both accomplish that goal.Challenge two is having enough copies of that book so students can read it. Having the books in hands is always a struggle! Where are our money trees?
Jen Zarlino
8/1/2017 06:06:05 pm
I think it is great that you are contemplating how this new learning impacts your teaching practice. I am too! One thing that helped me move from whole class reading together to book club style reading was modeling how to notice important details in a story and tracking that as the story continued- this made students come to discussion group with something to talk about. I also found that meeting every other day or every third day (depending on how much time students have to finish the book) allowed them to come to discussion with some rich conversation topics. When I first started, students were meeting daily and ran out of topics that were deeper and they fell back on literal level conversations that just weren't exciting. I hope as you try some new approaches or ideas with your colleagues that you find some success and ways to make it your own!
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Lisa Frase
8/6/2017 08:30:14 am
Jen,
Jen Zarlino
8/7/2017 02:17:46 pm
Hi Lisa! I do a lot of modeling and 'seed planting' during Interactive Read Aloud or during shared reading of a text. For example, strong conversations are extremely important to the success of book clubs so I begin modeling and teaching how to build a conversation around a text during read aloud. I also start reader's notebooks at the beginning of the year and use my demonstration notebook in my mini lessons as a way to model the writing about reading and thinking I want the students to be doing. We do a lot of sharing with the writing about reading the students do because that is what sparks conversations during book clubs. I also will start with a short book club with strong picture books that help students understand the responsibilities of a successful book club and then build up to novels. For every reading unit (I switch back and forth between reading and writing units every 3-4 weeks), we have some shared texts that I model and use in mini lessons and I am intentional with my mini lessons so that the work I want students to do in book club is something that we do as a whole class first. I hope that helps!
Jennie Burris
8/2/2017 08:04:22 am
Well...I can say I have "tried" it...I am not sure if it was the most successful model.
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Jenn Ramage
8/3/2017 07:15:59 pm
I do not teach ELA, so I've been reading this as someone who works solely with informational text. My students will always be reading the same thing, but perhaps it could be paced differently for different students. I may experiment with that a bit this year.
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Jenn Ramage
8/3/2017 07:22:59 pm
She allows kids to select Cast Two Shadows during that unit, as well! 8/4/2017 03:37:54 pm
Jenn, the colleague you are referring to also CHECKS in with each student. This makes a big difference if the kids know they will be held accountable. That's why you two are the "dream team!"
Lisa Frase
8/6/2017 08:35:50 am
Jenn,
Kelly Cummings
8/16/2017 02:37:15 pm
I have always tried to make my instructional novel the same or three different novels like youre saying here, but then their SSR book is their choice novel. That seems to work. I got this idea from Laura Robb.
Kate Simons
8/22/2017 10:27:02 am
Hello Jenn,
Lisa Frase
8/6/2017 08:25:34 am
Bob,
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Bob Long
8/6/2017 01:31:00 pm
Hi Lisa,
Jackie Blosser
8/9/2017 04:23:15 pm
I haven't tried this personally in my role as the ELA curriculum leader k-12, but really plan to share the information from this chapter with my high school ENGLISH department. It our high poverty urban setting I see so many high school students disengaged as I do walk throughs in ELA classes and yet the teachers insist on continuing to do whole group novels with no student choice. The student don't make any connections to the text and therefore don't perform well in the classeoom. How do I get high school teachers set in their ways and teaching their content as "content experts" in the same manner they always have to make a change? This has been my struggle in my position as my background classroom teaching is 1-8 and also special education.
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Barb Gall
8/15/2017 02:35:25 pm
Bob,
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Angela Westlake
7/31/2017 05:05:25 pm
While I agreed with many of the points in "Reading the Same Book," I didn't feel like it changed my thinking at all as a third grade teacher. However, in "The Power of Talk," I was really struck by the idea that conversations in the classroom are so different than conversations anywhere else. It's so true! One thing I would really like to change in my classroom in the coming year is giving students the opportunity to discuss texts in meaningful ways with their peers. However, I often have a hard time posing questions that will really get my students to have dialogue. My goal is to be more intentional with my questioning and to allow my students more opportunities to share their thinking. Although it is hard to give up the control, I think it will be worth it in the end if it gets students thinking more critically about the text, and thus engaging them more effectively!
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Angie Toole
7/31/2017 07:18:28 pm
Angela I totally agree. Giving third graders more opportunities to discuss texts with their peers would be ideal. It is often hard to get more then the usual 5 students to express their thoughts. I do believe that if I try to implement this in my room the conversations will be more powerful and effective.
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Jen Zarlino
8/1/2017 06:31:58 pm
When I was reading your thoughts I remembered a quick write activity I observed in a 4th grade classroom last year that lends itself to helping students talk in meaningful ways about a text. The teacher asked students to have 3 post its and a pencil available during her read aloud and she posted 3 open ended questions on the board for students to respond to while she read. (One of them was "What surprised you?") She told them they could respond to any of the questions when they felt compelled to do so but that she did expect them to respond 3 times during the reading. She paused a couple of times when she saw a lot of students writing a thought down. After the reading she asked students to work in triads to discuss the reading and to use their thoughts as launch points for their discussion.
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Jennie Burris
8/2/2017 08:27:29 am
Jen - 8/4/2017 12:23:34 pm
I TOTALLY love the idea of the three post-its as it let's one quickly note a specific quote or phrase without having to "get outside the book" and write anything down. I will use this strategy-thanks!
Katy Flynn
8/22/2017 10:07:57 am
The three Post-its seems like a great strategy to use for just about any activity! I'm thinking it would be beneficial to get in the habit of using them for activities like reading, but also for the occasional video to really try to hold their focus (focused video watching, instead of focused silent reading) instead of worksheet with a series of questions that will stress some of the students out; for note taking purposes such as question asking without stopping and getting off-topic or interrupting a short lecture; or during lab activities when we may want students focusing on a certain aspect of the lab or to write down questions students develop as they're working in the lab but that don't necessarily need to be addressed in the moment. This may be one strategy I attempt to implement far sooner rather than later. Thanks for the idea!
Heather Barnes
8/3/2017 05:55:26 pm
Angela - I agree that "The Power of Talk" chapter made me think of the conversations/discussions that occur in my classroom. I was especially struck by the comment about how you may not remember the name of the main character of a book, but you remember how the book made you feel. :)
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Molly Klodor
8/21/2017 06:48:20 pm
I really like using Socratic Seminars as a way in for these conversations. I hope my students remember them as much as I do!
Tara O'Hea
8/6/2017 03:28:19 pm
I am fortunate enough to co-teach for two of my classes. I love that my co-teacher and I can model good examples of book discussions with the class. We have the most fun modeling nonexamples! The students get a kick out of it, but it also helps them show the same good discussion behaviors.
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Andrea Conover
8/8/2017 02:56:56 pm
I agree, Angela. I think I will need to reread and continue to ponder the "Reading the Same Book" section. However, I will say "The Power of Talk" resonated more with me as well. I started to use "what surprised you?" with both fiction and nonfiction texts this past year and it really changed the way my kids talked about their reading.
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Barb Gall
8/15/2017 02:30:59 pm
Angela,
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8/17/2017 02:25:02 am
The conversation may take some prompting. Think about how many years they have been 'trained' to show what they know in a monologue manner.
Kelly Cummings
8/16/2017 02:40:20 pm
I agree with your Angela. Sometimes I create open questions for the students and then they answer the questions and are finished discussing in five minutes, even when we do a fish bowl example.
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Tracy Obringer
7/31/2017 05:43:40 pm
So, Chapter 14 was probably the first chapter that I really did not agree with. In theory it sounds fantastic...if they choose it...they will read it... Obviously kids are more engaged when they have a vested interest in what they are reading. I get that--I truly do.
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Megan McCaffret
8/1/2017 11:49:05 am
100% agree...I just can't get on board with students all reading whatever they want. Nightmare for students, teachers, curriculum mapping, lesson planning--I could go on. I think between silent reading and reading all the same book I tend to respectfully disagree with Beers & Probst. What I do plan to implement is a day where students may choose to read whatever they want(magazine, newspaper, novel, etc) silently. It takes both concepts and that's about as much as I'm willing to do at this point. I teach Juniors and there are far too many variables to consider before I get too crazy and completely give up novel units.
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Tracy Obringer
8/2/2017 06:15:41 am
Megan,
Jennie Burris
8/2/2017 08:10:10 am
8/4/2017 03:34:43 pm
Jennie, I think informational text is often more difficult for most people. I think the more teachers include it...the better. By the time they get to high school....most of their text will be (or should be) non-fiction. In college almost all of it is.
Andrea Conover
8/8/2017 03:02:59 pm
Megan - I have to agree with you to some extent. I allow students to read whatever they want for silent reading; however, I'm still a fan of read-alouds and in some cases whole-class reading. So I struggled as well with some of the information in that section.
Joan Miller
8/2/2017 11:48:32 am
Tracy- I agree- I love the theory and am not necessarily "against" reviewing the work that is done with whole-class novels but I do think that some of the most amazing conversations we had in class came from whole class novels but then I also worked hard to build in accommodations for below-level readers and extensions for above-level readers. I do agree that my thinking has evolved about the questions and the assigned pages. I prefer telling kids to be at a certain place for a discussion on a certain day. That is still probably not right- but it felt like kids had more control over their reading habit. One year, I eliminated all of my required reading except one novel and instead did group choices. It seemed to be hit or miss for kids- some liked it, some didn't. You can never find the perfect solution. I think it is best for us to be reflective and open to new ideas/research. I say don't do away with them but keep on asking yourself about what's best and that is the best we can do. :)
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Molly Klodor
8/3/2017 08:13:07 am
Joan, I also have a policy of "be at this part of the book on this day." I know it's not perfect, but it works for me and my students. I make a bookmark with the schedule printed on one side so they always have that with them. It usually gets amended as we read, but it's there as a start! I also have tried to step away from the reading guide questions, especially for my advanced students. Instead, I have reading checks that function more like journals and ask more of those dialogic questions instead of "what happened when..." It definitely doesn't catch all of those who have pretended to read, but it encourages students to think more after they read a section.
Heather Barnes
8/3/2017 05:51:16 pm
Molly -- I love your bookmark idea with where students should be and when! I may need to steal this! :)
Kate Simons
8/22/2017 11:21:32 am
Hello Joan,
Barb Gall
8/15/2017 02:37:42 pm
I can see your points, but am curious as to how you accommodate for different reading levels in your classroom. Are they all capable of reading the novel independently?
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Miranda Franck
8/15/2017 07:41:06 pm
Molly,
Angie Toole
7/31/2017 07:13:14 pm
As an intervention specialist I have several ways to adapt the reading of a whole class book. I find this to be one of my more challenging tasks. Often my students are two instructional reading grade levels below their peers. When a teacher assigns the class the same book it can be very difficult for my students. I have had students listen to the book on tape and follow along with the actual book, I have used Learning Ally for students to listen to the book and have the words highlighted as it is read, I have reread the book in small group to my students and I have had my students read with a peer. Other times depending on the reading level I have retyped the book using words with visuals so the student has a better understanding. Usually during common reading the entire class will be reading the same book that the teacher has directed them to read. When it is common reading usually the teacher is reading and the students follow along. At times the students will be directed to read on their own. Since the book is usually way to hard for my students and on their frustration level I will do a small group with them. I really found it interesting that the book said to allow students to read books that are not on their instructional or independent level. I have found when kids are reading books on their frustration level that they chose the book to appear like they can read the same books as their peers and have very little comprehension of what they have read. On p. 146 it states, " Listening doesn't build reading stamina; listening doesn't allow the reader to decide what to reread, when to untangle confusion, when to mull over a favorite passage, when to stare at illustrations." This statement really gave me insight as a teacher to what my students may be feeling as they are listening. It really is just allowing the kids to experience the text together not all of the other things we hope they are gaining. I need to remember all kids do not read at the same pace, have the same interests and its important to give the students a choice in choosing the common book.
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8/4/2017 12:28:51 pm
Angie,
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Kate Simons
8/22/2017 07:42:53 pm
I also loved the quote on page 146 about what a reader decides when reading. When I am reading, I definitely enjoy pausing to think deeply about something and I frequently go back to re-read sections that I found highly enjoyable or slightly confusing. Student miss out on those opportunities if they are being read to or stressing about round robin or popcorn.
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8/1/2017 03:57:31 am
I am so grateful that I had an opportunity to read and dialogue about this book with all of you this summer. Just the idea that so many of you are stopping and thinking about why you do what you do and that you are being reflective about your practice was worth it. In my position I can continue to message and encourage disruptive thinking. I can also offer opportunities to dialogue. I clearly understand the difference between dialogue and monologue after reading this chapter. Like Angie, when you are asked what do you remember about a book you read it is the things that touched your heart, or changed your thinking.
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Tracy Obringer
8/2/2017 06:17:26 am
Your post made me think of something...didn't we just spend 8 weeks what Beers and Probst say isn't that effective? LOL!! How would this have worked if we all just came to the table with a different book? It wouldn't have...we would never have had the rich discussions and interactions that we have had...
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Jenn Ramage
8/3/2017 07:27:10 pm
Great point, Tracy! I wonder what would happen if, after reading this book together, we chose from three different follow-up books and then came back together to discuss. That could be very interesting.
Tara O'Hea
8/6/2017 03:32:21 pm
Good point. However, we are not reading the book in the same way, which is a plus.Also, we all chose to read this book. I do see value in the shared reading experience.
Andrea Conover
8/8/2017 03:08:15 pm
I was thinking this same thought process when they said that if you ARE reading the same book, "you want to finish it in a week." I was thinking... I have read this book for 8 weeks and it has been beneficial and engaging! I don't think I could have thought about it as deeply had I sped through it in a week.
Traci Kennedy-Brockfield
8/8/2017 09:38:30 pm
Some of you did - but I had a crazy busy summer and did most of it in 2 weeks :) 8/4/2017 12:31:26 pm
YAY! I agree that we have all practiced disruptive thinking and will change our practices based on this book so we have become a model class for the principles in this book. Thanks Heidi for setting it up in this fashion!
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8/4/2017 03:31:53 pm
I think anytime a group of teachers get together with an open mindset and are willing to discuss, share, collaborate, etc....everyone walks away having been given the greatest gift....improvement. I never feel satisfied with my teaching. I always spend the summer rethinking, redoing, adding, taking away, etc.... this summer has been especially fulfilling. Learning communities have helped me tremendously. I have found a small one in my district (just me and one other teacher, but boy has it been powerful for both of us!), this group has insour d me and made me question and rethink some of my lessons, and I also belong to a group on Facebook. Each interaction has been positive, productive, and meaningful. I know my students will benefit from my having these experiences!
Megan McCaffrey
8/1/2017 11:59:13 am
Chapter 14 is a tough one because as a high school English teacher (Juniors) I just can't agree that students shouldn't read the same novel at the same time. I don't take 8 weeks for my classes to read a novel...it usually takes around 3ish, so if the novel is hated by a percentage of students the pain is temporary, lol! At the Junior level, I'm preparing students for college and beyond. For the most part, colleges aren't letting students pick whatever they want to read and allowing silent reading days. I tend to be a realist--and I realize I'm in a profession where many people are idealist. The realist in me says, the kids are going to all read The Great Gatsby at the same time. Some won't like it, some will love it. Then, when we read The Catcher in the Rye, those who loved Gatsby will hate Catcher. Etc. etc. There are ways I can incorporate choice and students not all reading the same novel--independent novel projects for my honors classes, etc...but for the most part, I will continue to have class-wide novel units.
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Tracy Obringer
8/2/2017 06:20:34 am
Megan,
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Joan Miller
8/2/2017 12:04:48 pm
Megan- I agree- I believe that school is always about moderation. (Just like eating!) We need to do what is best but sometimes what is best is a variety of instructional practices and strategiesI think that cutting down the time to finish a novel is a step in the right direction. But, college and even real life (world of work) is about assigned reading, timelines, etc… So (personal opinion) I do feel their is value in high school and beyond being more focused on assigned reading to build meaning. But, we just have to work hard to build a love of reading so kids have time to practice strategies, etc… with books they want to read but part of growing up is learning how to complete tasks. Again, not until high school but sometimes we have to think about what we do and how we prepare kids for next steps. I also believe strongly in cultural literacy- as long as we are including diverse authors and perspectives, I think it is important for students to have those shared conversations.
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Lisa Frase
8/6/2017 01:39:39 pm
Megan, Tracy & Joan,
Angela Westlake
8/2/2017 05:39:11 pm
Thanks for your insights, Megan. I definitely see value in having been exposed to some classic texts that I would never have personally chosen to read. There are a lot of cultural references to many classics, and I feel like I would be less culturally aware if I hadn't been required to read these texts.
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Angie Toole
8/6/2017 12:35:06 pm
Megan I agree with you that at a certain grade level all students should read have to read the same book. I believe it's important to expose students especially in highschool to some of the classic books that for the most part students would not pick on their own. I think reading the same book in highschool within three weeks allows plenty of time to read and a wonderful opportunity for great discussions.
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Jennie Joseph
8/1/2017 01:01:32 pm
I know this doesn't go with THESE chapters, but I'm guessing that a lot of you, like me, are thinking about how to start the school year. A colleague shared this poem and I immediately thought of the BHH framework and asking how this changed their thinking. (caution, it does have the word damn) https://spoonvision.wordpress.com/2017/07/31/how-was-your-summer/
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steve murray
8/3/2017 08:34:01 pm
My reply doesn't really go with this section either, but I am starting the year with a survey/questionnaire like the ones discussed in a previous thread. I've tried hard to avoid being the Establish My Presence Day One teacher. I think it'd be really refreshing to have the kids think about what it is that they care most about.
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Tara O'Hea
8/6/2017 03:34:14 pm
This is a beautiful poem. thanks for sharing.
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Jen Zarlino
8/1/2017 05:52:47 pm
As I read the chapter, Reading the Same Book, I knew there was going to be some debate about this chapter because I am having ongoing conversations with middle school teachers I work with about this same topic. It has taken time and practice, but I feel like the middle school teachers I work with have embraced student choice in reading by using book clubs and allowing students to choose what they read during workshop time, but they do still use shared reading experiences for their lessons. I do feel there is power and necessity in a whole class shared reading experience. I often use short stories for mentor texts, but if I use novels, we usually start them in class for a few days and then students will read them during independent reading time and I pull small groups of students for comprehension or fluency work. I used to feel very strongly about teaching specific novels. What changed my thinking was a combination of professional learning opportunities and trying something new and making adjustments. When a mentor in my building was supporting me in trying book clubs and moving from just whole class novels, she said to me, "Is your role to teach this book, or to teach the reader how to read and how to think about their reading so that they can apply that to anything they read?" And I guess my thought is that in grades K-8, and even into high school, teaching the reader is the prominent task, and I think that is where choice can be important. What I teach during my lessons needs to apply to anything the students read, not just one text. I can teach my students to analyze themes in many different stories, for example, and we may read a few short ones together for me to model and for my students to talk about together, but I want them to apply that in the texts they read on their own. I do understand that in high school there are some literature specific classes in which the answer would be, 'Yes, I need to teach novels X,Y,Z" so the choice aspect is more difficult. If the whole class shared reading texts are purposeful, short, and not analyzed to death, they are powerful as a resource to use in teaching. At the same time, in my experience, engagement and excitement increases when students frequently have choice in their reading.
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Jennie Burris
8/2/2017 08:13:55 am
"I do understand that in high school there are some literature specific classes in which the answer would be, 'Yes, I need to teach novels X,Y,Z" so the choice aspect is more difficult. If the whole class shared reading texts are purposeful, short, and not analyzed to death, they are powerful as a resource to use in teaching. At the same time, in my experience, engagement and excitement increases when students frequently have choice in their reading." --> THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!!
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steve murray
8/3/2017 08:25:54 pm
Our school is set up so that all incoming freshmen take the same Humanities class and read the same books at the same pace. I have issues with some of this. Not with the reading at the same pace but rather with the selection of the works, a reading list that has not changed in years. Having said that, it's fun to get these kids when they are seniors and how deeply they felt about those books, for good or ill, and how bonding that experience seems to be.
Joan Miller
8/2/2017 12:17:03 pm
I so agree- I think we should always focus on the idea of teaching the reader not the reading, same principle applies in writing- teach the writer, not the writing. But, there are times/places for that shared conversations, I just think we have to be thoughtful about what books, what work, pacing, etc…
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Jen Zarlino
8/7/2017 02:25:45 pm
Joan you are so right in saying that teacher attitude and approach can make a difference in student reaction! I love the blending of Great Expectations with modern spoofs!
Amy B
8/5/2017 01:20:15 pm
I think student choice makes teachers nervous because you can't lesson plan for spontaneous student conversation over ten or more books! Choice can be successful if it is supervised. Asking basic questions if student is enjoying the book or understanding the book is an easy way to guide student choice. The ultimate goal is to avoid a student being a color or reading level. The idea of teaching kids it is okay to drop an unenjoyable book is a hard lesson to learn as you get older but why waste your time on dreadful stories.
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Tara O'Hea
8/6/2017 03:35:58 pm
"Is your role to teach this book, or to teach the reader how to read and how to think about their reading so that they can apply that to anything they read?" This is so thought-provoking. I need to reflect on this and adjust my teaching. Thank you for sharing your experience.
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Joan Miller
8/2/2017 12:33:42 pm
So these two chapters were great! I enjoyed the conversation around reading the same book and I agree with their logic and explanations around reading the same book but I also liked that they didn't definitively say NO! I agree that it shouldn't be the total experience of students in middle and high school. But, I do strongly believe that some whole class novels are fantastic for conversations and for building some basic ideas that can be used all year for building connections and overarching themes.
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Amy B
8/5/2017 01:13:34 pm
What I liked about the conversation on one class novel was it discussed how in all the authors time researching they couldn't find a strong study supporting one novel over weeks of study. I had an internal gut feeling that weeks long study of the same book was tedious if not unnatural in everyday life. One class novel kiss choices, takes too long, creates more negative emotions than positive, and uniformity of reading is unnatural. Listening does have a place in the classroom though it is different than reading which one class novel really doesn't work well for either teaching method.
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Jennie Burris
8/2/2017 04:49:59 pm
Chapter 14 was difficult for me to wrap my mind around and I had a discussion with my boyfriend (an ESL teacher) about this for over an hour.
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Angela Westlake
8/2/2017 05:42:51 pm
Jennie, thanks for your thoughts from the special education perspective. I agree that there are times you just need to read the same book so you don't go crazy! I have experience as an intervention specialist, as well, and I think that we have to remember that generalizations will not necessary fit the needs of those special kids. I would also hope your group is smaller than a typical classroom, which also makes a difference in this discussion.
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Jennie Burris
8/3/2017 01:22:37 pm
Thank you Angela - 8/4/2017 12:36:57 pm
Jennie,
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Miranda Franck
8/15/2017 07:47:26 pm
I would agree that audio books paired with the book are great ideas. I allow it, but I didn't used to. I see that our students are changing and some NEED that in order to stay on task, which is ok with me. They still get practice with smaller texts.
Molly Klodor
8/3/2017 08:18:50 am
I love the idea of the dialogic instead of monologic conversations. There are many days when I sit at my chair in my classroom and I start off my class with "What surprised you in this section" and then I don't really ask another question for the entire 50 minutes. There are certainly some days where I have some prepared questions to discuss, but I find that these dialogic conversations with the class are so much more rich. As an aside, these whole class conversations would be few and far between if we didn't have a whole class novel.
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steve murray
8/3/2017 08:30:41 pm
A mainstay of our Humanities program is the Socratic seminar. Some argue that it is not a "real" Socratic seminar, but I don 't care because the kids like it and it seems effective. It's also great for me because a rule is that I have to keep out of it, which is difficult for me (as it is for all of us who simply have to heave our voice heard lol). It also gives a safe, structured setting for students to speak. Nearly every seminar over the last 15 years has had for me a moment when I am listening to kids talk, usually about a work i have taught many times, and I think "How come I never thought of that?"
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Miranda Franck
8/15/2017 07:50:25 pm
Steve,
Heather Barnes
8/3/2017 05:48:56 pm
After reading last week's material, I was feeling really good about the independent reading happening in my classroom. I was doing something right! Then. . . I read chapter 14. . .
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Jenn Ramage
8/3/2017 07:33:34 pm
I think you've identified a fair point in saying that IF your students are following along with text as they hear it, then they are reading. The problem is that many kids don't do that, and they end up behind. My students (8th grade science) often cite having been read to as one of the reasons they struggle with informational text I assign. They are unable to decode efficiently, which leads to lack of comprehension. They crave the challenge of reading on their own. I know it doesn't always get finished if expected outside class, but maybe that's why Beers & Probst strongly advocate for silent reading during class.
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Jenn Ramage
8/3/2017 07:37:05 pm
I am intrigued by the use of monologic and dialogic questioning. To me, basic comprehension is assessed through monologics, whereas dialogics encourage students to delve into conversations with each other and with me. I can imagine how awesome this would be in an ELA environment, and even in a science environment. I envision more deliberate use dialogic questioning to motivate outside the box thinking among my kids during inquiry projects!
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Amy B
8/5/2017 01:09:06 pm
Dialogic questions stood out to me too as a unique name for a misused strategy in today's classrooms. I could see most teachers finding dialogic questions burdensome to have on tests due to grading or in class because they take precious time to answer. These questions also are much harder to prepare for as a teacher and can lead to tangents. Though I find in my life if I am not filling out paperwork like a passport renewal or medical information I much more encounter dialogic questions in everyday life. I believe dialogic questions are the goal of lifelong learners because life's problems have no simple answers!
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Traci Kennedy-Brockfield
8/8/2017 09:36:25 pm
For my elementary students, I taught it as thick and thin questions - the thin questions the answers are right there, but thick ones you have to think about more and come up with your reasoning/evidence. It comes in handy across the subjects!
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steve murray
8/3/2017 08:20:32 pm
Part of this reading for Week 9 made me feel like this was not something intended for my students. I work in an urban school (never confused with the Orange School District in northern Ohio). I don't know where my students would have access to a wide enough variety of books to read individual works And please don't suggest the school library; you'd have to see it to believe it. And to ask kids to go out and but their own is not practical; it's not even legal to assign them to do so if they are on free or reduced meals, with the majority are. Also, there are many students who can be self-directed enough to read a book independently, but there are many who are not.And for many urban kids the teacher is the "educated" person who is going to guide them through a work. And by our guiding them, they are often accumulating the cultural capital that they so need and that so many kids who live in less challenging circumstances have already internalized just by virtue of their day to day lives. I also think the Eudora Welty described "reader's ear" doe not develop for all children before secondary school.In households that have reading materials, quiet spaces, and reading role models, that ear probably does develop early. That is not all students... I did however take to heart the section about teachers like me who, although wanting to be "dialogic" too frequently slip into "monologic" mode when that inner clock starts harping "You need to move on..You need to finish..There is too much wait time." Been at this a long time and it remains a challenge.
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Jennie Joseph
8/4/2017 07:11:36 pm
I totally agree with what you are saying. I am in an urban district also, but have moved around within the district and have seen different levels of poverty and wealth. But you have to teach differently and model more for sure.
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Jennie Joseph
8/4/2017 08:42:44 am
I am finding that I am reading chapter 14 (Reading the Same Book) very defensively, so perhaps I'm missing some of their point. I taught at the middle school level for many years where many teachers taught their classes the same novel. I received a lot of eye-rolls from teachers for having multiple books going (book groups) with a common theme. I differentiated a lot. So I thought this chapter would support that...but I feel like even that is frowned upon by Beers & Probst...who I think are saying kids should ALWAYS choose their own book. I can't agree to that. From my experience, free choice is good SOME of the time. But, some kids choose crap to read, some choose to fake/not read and I find that when I conference or question or discuss a book they have chosen that I haven't read...it's just not as good of a discussion. How am I to know if they choose a good example, of say, contrast and contradiction. Sure, they may have proven to me in conferencing that they get the concept, but maybe they missed a very subtle one that would be good to point out and discuss...but I won't know to do that if I haven't read the book. Furthermore, I have ALWAYS had a couple books that the whole class reads as an "anchor text". Middle school was The Giver and Mr. Was. I assigned deadlines for reading and so we could talk as a class. And sure, some read ahead...I didn't punish them but they often found out it makes it harder to discuss without ruining parts. (they never think I'm right about that :)) -- I have now co-taught in 3 different classrooms for the past 6 years as in intervention specialist in 5th and 6th grades. At these grade levels, they read at least 2 novels a year aloud as a class -- and I LOVE it...feel like 95% of the kids do also (at least 3% would hate even a book of their own choosing). We have rich discussions and reactions and...I often think it's some of our best teaching! I am sad Kylene and Bob would disagree. One of my three teachers has a different "style" for her classroom that has grown on me. First, she is very FAST -- I tend to be more methodical and go deep. She covers a lot quickly. Pros and cons to both, but I will say that most days she gives kids time to read independently (books of their choosing -- a couple of book clubs meet during this time or one of us will conference with students); she also finds the time to do a couple of chapters of a novel read aloud (I think maybe she does 6 or so a year). And yes, her class is 95 minutes long so that helps. But I can't imagine ONLY having the choice books and conferences...that is, in my opinion, by far, the LEAST effective of the 3 types of reading we get in (book groups being the most effective in my opinion). Please tell me I am misinterpreting Bob and Kylene's philosophy of all self select books being what's best for growing a students' reading???
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8/4/2017 12:40:21 pm
Overall, I go back to Penny Kittle's formula 25% all-class texts, 50% independent reading and 25% mentor writing texts (I believe that is the last 25%-feel free to correct me someone).
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Lisa Frase
8/6/2017 01:59:59 pm
Sarah,
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Amy B
8/5/2017 01:05:22 pm
These chapters finally gave me a satisfying answer on what to do in my classroom to support readers. Active steps that can be taken were mind changing for me was making a distinct difference between listening to a book and reading a book. They are two very different tools to support different reading goals and should be treated as such. What a powerful message on varying reading techniques to work on different necessary reading skills. I appreciated the discussion on having listening as part of the classroom though with the goal of decoding for students.
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Angie Toole
8/7/2017 02:03:05 pm
Amy, I was surprised too with the difference between reading a book and listening to a book. I have never thought of them as different tools. When my students could not decode text I just assumed the best answer was to have them listen to the book. However, it is very insightful to have a better understanding that reading a book and listening to a book has two different goals depending on the reader.
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Jackie Blosser
8/9/2017 04:31:46 pm
Amy and Angie, I too never really thought of the differnence beteeen reading and listening to a text read aloud. My wheels are turning now in how to share this with intervention specialists who often read aloud much of a text so students have the same access to the informafion as their peers. Do they really?
Traci Kennedy-Brockfield
8/8/2017 09:33:56 pm
I don't think I've taken 4 months to get through something, but reading the 6-8 weeks in the text made me think of some instances where that has happened in my class (or where we decided just to abandon it because it was taking so long and we didn't love it!) Guilty as charged, but I'll be more mindful in the future of that time.
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Bob Long
8/6/2017 01:44:21 pm
The section on The Power of Talk casued me some moments of introspection. I flashed back to my beginning years of teaching in the early 1980s. I've often felt bad about those years...like I "cheated" the kids because my teaching methods were so crude compared to now. That's probably true with most teachers. The longer we teach, the more we learn (from classes like this), and better we get.
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Lisa Frase
8/6/2017 02:31:29 pm
The school librarian in me loved chapter 14! When students used to come to the library and had to find an independent reading book at their Lexile level, it discouraged many students. It discouraged readers with high Lexile reading levels...the library didn't have many choices at the 1000+ range or the lower Lexile range. So, my interpretation of choice reading for students might be different than others. For those students who were frustrated, I would encourage their teachers to let them check out another book - one that they wanted to read but didn't fit their "Lexile." Most teachers allowed this. (I was in the middle school library for 8 years...in the beginning, this wasn't the requirement for any of the students.) It was difficult to watch students who were initially excited to come to the library -- leave with disappointment and frustration.
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Tara O'Hea
8/6/2017 03:24:29 pm
This chapter was a tough read for me, because I currently do whole class novels with my students. I agree that there needs to be more choice, but I also appreciated the strategies included for the ties when a whole class novel is implemented. I have a questions: On page 146, there is a section about whole class novels as read alouds. Beers and Probst state to finish the book in a week. Is this true for all whole class novels or just read alouds?
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Traci Kennedy-Brockfield
8/8/2017 09:31:57 pm
I pondered this as well - for me to finish some chapter books in a week, it has to be because we're so hooked we read "past" our time to see what's next.
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Miranda Franck
8/6/2017 08:16:58 pm
I loved this section, and I did not come away with the impression that reading whole-class novels is bad practice: I came away with the notion that spending several weeks or drawing out the duration of a novel does little good. I'm considering that maybe the authors refer to the practice of spending an entire nine weeks focusing mostly on one novel, assigning a chapter or so per night with corresponding blackline masters and vocabulary lists, etc. One practice that has worked well (certainly nor perfect) for me is to give the students a calendar with due date checkpoints and focus areas for annotation. Students like to be able to work ahead, and they also like being able to time manage more efficiently. I admittedly do a better job of this at the junior level, trying to mimic college syllabi.
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Miranda Franck
8/6/2017 08:20:33 pm
When a student falls behind, *they see me for a one on one conference.
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Traci Kennedy-Brockfield
8/8/2017 09:30:54 pm
I found the turn and talk questions on page 156 interesting and a good place for me to respond.
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Andrea Conover
8/9/2017 06:38:57 am
I'm happy to see so many are still considering the importance/struggling with giving up whole-class reads like I am.
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Jennie Joseph
8/10/2017 06:37:26 pm
Was anyone else shocked by the suggestion of doing a read-aloud in a week???!!! P. 146 What grade level and WHY? Just found it to be a bold suggestion without a lot of support. Yes, they clearly don't like teachers reading a book aloud, but wondering about the
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Heidi Weber
8/16/2017 06:40:52 am
I took cannot see doing an entire book in one week... unless it is a picture book :0)
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Katy Flynn
8/21/2017 08:03:33 pm
I was shocked by that recommendation as well. I assumed it had to be a book at a younger grade level. I remember my 6th grade teacher would often read aloud from a novel of her choosing one of which was William Golding's “The Princess Bride”. It took us months to read through that book leading me to assume the one-week suggestion is for the primary grades. I also think that if I had a 1 week “ deadline” in the back of my mind, it would stress me out and I wouldn't read as effectively or as quickly.
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Kelly Cummings
8/16/2017 03:07:41 pm
This school year I really want to focus on the power of talk in my class. I definitely think the students rely on my to lead the conversation and then lead their thinking and then lead them to how it connects with their life. I know students learn by going deeper and asking their own questions.
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8/20/2017 06:54:17 am
Reading the same book makes management easier for teachers. We are able to hold students accountable with less effort of the teacher's part. It is easier for students to "fake" their reading. However, this doesn't mean it's best practice. After reading this section, I'm re-evaluating how to incorporate choice into my instruction.
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Barb Gall
8/20/2017 10:04:16 am
I LOVE the picture of the child on page 139 holding the sign saying "I'm not an H." This spoke volumes to me as I rely heavily on F and P assessments to guide my teaching. And those same assessments are used by administration in evaluating my teaching skills at times. This really opened my eyes to the damage we are causing when we label our students. While it is imperative that kiddos read 'just right' books, teaching them how to chose those books is critical. Giving up the control in my classroom has been a challenge for me. When all of the students are reading the same book, I felt like I was a better teacher because I knew said book inside and out. I knew what skills I could teach using that one book, and I had one assessment for all the kiddos based on the book. As my teaching has evolved, I have come to realize, and this chapter completely supports my decision to allow students choice during reading workshop time. Although it is a little tricky trying to make sure students truly understand what they are reading, especially when I haven't read every book in my classroom library. I'm slowly but surely coming to terms with the idea of choice and how this single idea could be a huge motivator for readers. Last year, students were told to pick books from book baskets that were at their independent level. I think that this year I will do a better job of allowing them to pick books that aren't at their level as well. Children are not a level, and I'm ready to apply this train of thought in my classroom:)
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Katy Flynn
8/21/2017 07:58:46 pm
Barb, I know that you will gain valuable connections with your students by allowing them choice in what they read beyond a specific level. As a strong reader I was used to having more freedom with reading from a pretty early age. Even in first and second grade we had reading groups based on proficiency and I was in the highest group, but I wanted to read similar stories to what my friends were reading. I also wanted to be able to read books at my level, so I would read the story my teacher assigned to my group, and then I would go and read the book that I brought, which was typically at least a couple grade levels above. If I had been pigeonholed into only being allowed access to books that were at my age level or specific content I can't guarantee that I would be the avid reader I am today.
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Katy Flynn
8/21/2017 07:51:01 pm
I thought it was interesting and incredibly helpful that there were specific guidelines spelled out for class wide reading of the same book. I like the idea of one-on-one conferences with the students while they are participating in silent reading time, and I appreciated the acknowledgement that teachers like to model reading to their students, would like to continue to read during silent reading time, and that sometimes it's okay to model that behavior as well.
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Kate Simons
8/22/2017 07:54:21 pm
Choice means choice!
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